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Where do you stand with Rick Barnes?

  • Where do I stand with Barnes?

    I dont.

    With our resources and location, a chimp could recruit just as well as Barnes with assistants like Springmann.

    Couldnt be less impressed with his all defense, no offense philosophy. Time to move on.

    Black Shipley

  • Texas 35th said...

    A. I think the comments in favor of Barnes due to the fact that Texas is primarily a football school are a complete joke.

    Not sure which side of the joke you are on but if Texas was a basketball school wouldn't we have some rabid fans? We never have had such anywhere near the true basketball schools such as Kansas Kentucky. Facility not so great, long time tradition not all that. The entire state is known as a football first state nationwide. The we should automatically be great and get any coach we want thought pattern is maybe not a joke but at least a funny limerick.

    dentonhorn

  • Bob in Houston said...

    Not Gerry but I'll suggest that the standard is, "Don't embarrass us."

    Goes for just about any sport, depending on the emphasis and the budget. It's why a coach can go 4-8 at Kansas in football but 18-14 in basketball would set his chair on fire.

    At Texas, people like basketball but they don't care about it. If they cared, Barnes might feel more heat. But if they cared, there might be a stronger tradition, and players might hang around longer, as Texas football players do, and Duke and North Carolina basketball players do, and Barnes would have a stronger resume of high seeds and NCAA victories than he already does (and believe it or not, it's still pretty good).

    When you get to No. 1, as Barnes did in 2010, and nearly fall out of the NCAA tournament, that's embarrassing. When you jack up expectations in 2011 with a perfect B12 start, then lose three of the last five, and blow a NCAA game that you had in your pocket after working really hard to overcome a big deficit, that's embarrassing.

    At Texas, the football coach can't go 3-9 and lose at home 66-3. Just can't do it. Can't go 5-7 with the same ol' crew and expect to keep on going.

    Barnes has set a high standard and has to show that he can still meet it. I don't think next year is make-or-break because I don't think the roster merits it. The next year? I think people will be watching closely.

    I agree with what you said entirely but my thoughts were based on the fact that we are already at a point where 36% (of a small sample) are ready for a change. If we missed the tournament next year would you really be surprised if that number exceeded 50%? I think you're saying that Rick is safe next year unless he goes 4-14 in conference (which is probably right) but the numbers are a little more against Rick at this point than I had anticipated.

    Hornographer

  • Bob in Houston said...

    Not Gerry but I'll suggest that the standard is, "Don't embarrass us."

    Goes for just about any sport, depending on the emphasis and the budget. It's why a coach can go 4-8 at Kansas in football but 18-14 in basketball would set his chair on fire.

    At Texas, people like basketball but they don't care about it. If they cared, Barnes might feel more heat. But if they cared, there might be a stronger tradition, and players might hang around longer, as Texas football players do, and Duke and North Carolina basketball players do, and Barnes would have a stronger resume of high seeds and NCAA victories than he already does (and believe it or not, it's still pretty good).

    When you get to No. 1, as Barnes did in 2010, and nearly fall out of the NCAA tournament, that's embarrassing. When you jack up expectations in 2011 with a perfect B12 start, then lose three of the last five, and blow a NCAA game that you had in your pocket after working really hard to overcome a big deficit, that's embarrassing.

    At Texas, the football coach can't go 3-9 and lose at home 66-3. Just can't do it. Can't go 5-7 with the same ol' crew and expect to keep on going.

    Barnes has set a high standard and has to show that he can still meet it. I don't think next year is make-or-break because I don't think the roster merits it. The next year? I think people will be watching closely.

    I've long been under the impression that so long as Barnes wins 20 games per year and makes the tourney, he's not going to go anywhere. I've felt that way because I believe the majority of Texas fans would vote "C" if you were to ask them. Not sure those that answered this poll represent the majority of Texas fans, either. I think Barnes has recognized the situation he has here, and he'll never leave for a Kentucky, a UNC, etc. because he would have Mack Brown-esque expectations at a real basketball school. As of now, he gets to cash huge checks with diminished expectations. It's the kind of job I would enjoy.

    I haven't been impressed with Barnes at all. Watching our teams in comparison to the better programs across the country has been like night and day to me, particularly on the offensive end. I long ago accepted the fate that he would be here until he gets tired of making $2 million+ playing through the middle of March.

    bbliss

  • bbliss said...

    I've long been under the impression that so long as Barnes wins 20 games per year and makes the tourney, he's not going to go anywhere. I've felt that way because I believe the majority of Texas fans would vote "C" if you were to ask them. Not sure those that answered this poll represent the majority of Texas fans, either. I think Barnes has recognized the situation he has here, and he'll never leave for a Kentucky, a UNC, etc. because he would have Mack Brown-esque expectations at a real basketball school. As of now, he gets to cash huge checks with diminished expectations. It's the kind of job I would enjoy.

    I haven't been impressed with Barnes at all. Watching our teams in comparison to the better programs across the country has been like night and day to me, particularly on the offensive end. I long ago accepted the fate that he would be here until he gets tired of making $2 million+ playing through the middle of March.

    That is definitely a concern of mine with the small sample size of this poll. I think you have to have at least a small interest in Texas basketball to have clicked this thread, and by small interest I mean more than 98% of Texas grads and fans. I'm sure the majority wouldn't complain if we won a championship but I suspect they're in the "just happy to be competitive" camp.

    Hornographer

  • Props to you for starting this thread that prompted a lot of great basketball discussion.

    Lead Writer Hookem.com___EMAIL:atrubow@statesman.com___TWITTER: http://twitter.com/#!/aTrubow

    Alan Trubow

  • Hornographer said...

    Now that the season is over and it appears we're going to lose both Brown and Kabongo, I was hoping to see where everyone stands on the state of the Texas basketball team. I know lots of people are frustrated with our current run of one-and-done's but where do you fall:

    A) Texas basketball has peaked and is on it's way back down. It's time for a change.
    B) The next year or two are make or break for the Rick Barnes era. Making the tournament is great but we need to start showing progress again asap.
    C) Rick Barnes has made the tournament 14 years in a row at a football school. I'm happy with that and don't want to risk losing that for the sake of change.

    I really like Rick Barnes and recognize the limitations on the Texas basketball program, however I'm leaning towards A over B. I feel like much of the excitement built up from the TJ Ford through Kevin Durant years has left and I have a hard time coming up with a scenario where it returns based on our current situation. In the end, I can't help but remember how poor our offense has been in the tournament over the last 4 years and recognize that Rick Barnes is going to have a very difficult time winning it all with his offensive coaching limitations.

    Where do you stand?

    Meant to link to your original post.

    Repeat: Props to you for starting this thread that prompted a lot of great basketball discussion.

    Lead Writer Hookem.com___EMAIL:atrubow@statesman.com___TWITTER: http://twitter.com/#!/aTrubow

    Alan Trubow

  • Hell, let's bring back Weltlich! Come on. Barnes is the best we've had.

    Ron9

  • Hornographer said...

    I agree with what you said entirely but my thoughts were based on the fact that we are already at a point where 36% (of a small sample) are ready for a change. If we missed the tournament next year would you really be surprised if that number exceeded 50%? I think you're saying that Rick is safe next year unless he goes 4-14 in conference (which is probably right) but the numbers are a little more against Rick at this point than I had anticipated.

    The 36% that want a change is mostly people that don't follow college basketball, don't watch many games (if any), and really don't care about basketball except that they want a team they can brag about without supporting.

    I bet most of those in the B or C category are there because they know wtf they are talking about. I know that will piss some people off, but it's the truth. To me you lose all credibility when you start your post with I don't care much about basketball, I didn't watch a game this year, or I hate college basketball.

    HoopsCoach

  • Ron9

    Just because Barnes is the best we have had, it doesnt mean we cant do better.

    You always should strive for excellence, otherwise you are likely to end up mired in mediocrity. Which is exactly where Texas basketball is right now. Its just an "acceptable" form of "mediocrity" to some because "Texas is a football school." Not true for others.

    Why have we won NCs in baseball if "Texas is a football school"? That excuse is as lame and worn out as...well I wont go there. Ill just say its lame and worn out.

    Black Shipley

  • HoopsCoach said...

    The 36% that want a change is mostly people that don't follow college basketball, don't watch many games (if any), and really don't care about basketball except that they want a team they can brag about without supporting.

    I bet most of those in the B or C category are there because they know wtf they are talking about. I know that will piss some people off, but it's the truth. To me you lose all credibility when you start your post with I don't care much about basketball, I didn't watch a game this year, or I hate college basketball.

    I think everyone here would agree that Rick Barnes is the best men's basketball coach the University of Texas has ever had. I also think a fair number of people around here would agree that Rick Barnes either met or exceeded expectations this season. Where the difference comes in is whether you're okay with the expectations just to have been making the tournament after 3 consecutive disappointing seasons (in some form or another, I'd say last year exceeded expectations as a whole but had a disappointing finish). If we end up with none of Brown, Kabongo or Ridley next season I think there is a pretty good chance that we finally miss the tournament, at which time it's pretty safe to say the Texas basketball program has been trending downward over a 5 year span. Would Rick Barnes still be the coach for you to turn that around and back into a title contender?

    Edit: I think it's safe to say that your answer to that question is "yes" and while I obviously don't agree with that thought, you very well might be right. I'm really just curious as to everyone's thoughts and why they feel the way they do. I'd guess that "HoopsCoach" is probably a more valuable opinion than someone who is just a big fan like myself so please don't take the above comment as an attack on your beliefs.

    This post was edited by Hornographer on 3/22/2012 at 4:43 PM

    Hornographer

  • Bob in Houston said...

    Not Gerry but I'll suggest that the standard is, "Don't embarrass us."

    Goes for just about any sport, depending on the emphasis and the budget. It's why a coach can go 4-8 at Kansas in football but 18-14 in basketball would set his chair on fire.

    At Texas, people like basketball but they don't care about it. If they cared, Barnes might feel more heat. But if they cared, there might be a stronger tradition, and players might hang around longer, as Texas football players do, and Duke and North Carolina basketball players do, and Barnes would have a stronger resume of high seeds and NCAA victories than he already does (and believe it or not, it's still pretty good).

    When you get to No. 1, as Barnes did in 2010, and nearly fall out of the NCAA tournament, that's embarrassing. When you jack up expectations in 2011 with a perfect B12 start, then lose three of the last five, and blow a NCAA game that you had in your pocket after working really hard to overcome a big deficit, that's embarrassing.

    At Texas, the football coach can't go 3-9 and lose at home 66-3. Just can't do it. Can't go 5-7 with the same ol' crew and expect to keep on going.

    Barnes has set a high standard and has to show that he can still meet it. I don't think next year is make-or-break because I don't think the roster merits it. The next year? I think people will be watching closely.

    I'd argue that tradition is started by the program, not the brand. Let's take your examples of Kansas and Kentucky for instance. They are #1 and #2 winningest programs in intercollegiate sports to date. Kansas' first coach was none other than James Naismith in 1898. Naismith was, ironically, the only coach in the program's history to have a losing record (55–60). After his era, the great Phog Allen took over for a short while before William O. Hamilton took the reigns for two short years. (Allen coached the team from 1907–09, but William O. Hamilton coached from 1909–1919, with Allen taking over again in 1919.) The team went 125–59 and won five conference championships under Hamilton's direction. This began a long tenure for Allen as he led Kansas to a 590-219 record for 39 years. This created a tradition of winning basketball.

    Kentucky's program started in 1903 and held a losing record for 6 years before the university decided to abolish the program due to poor performance and overcrowding in the gymnasium. The following year, the student body urged a solution: utilize the armory for the basketball program and hire their FOOTBALL coach as the team's leader. Three years later they went undefeated. Over the next 20 years the program had normal ebbs and flows of a mediocre basketball team. Not until 1930 did the team sustain a program of tradition or consistent winning. Adolph Rupp coached the team to 4 National Championships, 6 Final Four appearances and 27 Conference Titles over his 42 year reign.

    Neither school entered basketball saying "Hey! We are _________ and you should be excited about basketball and the program we have." In each case it was earned through good coaching and stability in the program. (Best example would be "Rupp's Runts" in 1966 when he didn't have a player on the roster over 6'5" and finished runner-up to the National Championship.)

    Your comment "At Texas, people like basketball but they don't care about it" could not be more dead on. Look at Dallas winning the NBA Championship last year. Look at San Antonio's run a few years ago. Texans were ravenous about each program. And I'd argue that they would be just as ravenous about the 'Horns if they had something to cheer about in Austin. Fans would show up to the Drum and support a winning program, no doubt about it. I remember in the 1990's going to a Women's basketball game and fans filled the second level of the Erwin Center and cheered a winning program that had sustainable success.

    Regarding Barnes, I'd hold a very short leash with him. I would address his recruiting tactics and concentrate on talented players who want to be a Longhorn for more than a year. I believe that is the recipe that the winning programs follow and there is no reason we can't adopt that philosophy ourselves. This team should not be the "mandatory" springboard to the NBA.

    alb_tex

  • Ron9 said...

    Hell, let's bring back Weltlich! Come on. Barnes is the best we've had.

    I do think there might be somewhat of a generation gappy thing going on here. Back in my day...we played at old Gregory Gym, land of a 1,000 lines on the floor. Homecourt advantage in that we knew which ones were out of bounds. Leon Black coached then, and we didn't know what a sweet 16 even was. We got Abe though, my fav coach of all time. He brought in the "air craft carrier, in LaSalle Thompson (as described by the late Al McGuire) along with Mike Wacker and we had us a legit top 5 team right there now. Mike went down and so did we. Probably my most dissapointing year ever. Kaiser Bob was the most awful of days, that period was like 20 years wasn't it? Sweet Tommy P came on and tried his darndest to rally the campus folk to get over and support the team, mostly falling of deaf ears. Fun little teams, with the BMW team and such. We just could not play D and, as they said, you got to play D to actually win the tournament someday. Penders got us some talent, just not the elite of elite you know. Barnes could teach defense and he could bring in elite of elite talent. Still don't know why we were able to get him but glad we did for sure back then. So here we are, bunch of 20 game win seasons back to back, tourney for like 14 years in a row, more greats playing in the NBA than ever for the Horns and it ain't close. Some of us older guys remember the 1,000 lines and how far we've come and it makes suffering through another 20 win season a bit easier I think.

    dentonhorn

  • alb_tex said...

    I'd argue that tradition is started by the program, not the brand. Let's take your examples of Kansas and Kentucky for instance. They are #1 and #2 winningest programs in intercollegiate sports to date. Kansas' first coach was none other than James Naismith in 1898. Naismith was, ironically, the only coach in the program's history to have a losing record (55–60). After his era, the great Phog Allen took over for a short while before William O. Hamilton took the reigns for two short years. (Allen coached the team from 1907–09, but William O. Hamilton coached from 1909–1919, with Allen taking over again in 1919.) The team went 125–59 and won five conference championships under Hamilton's direction. This began a long tenure for Allen as he led Kansas to a 590-219 record for 39 years. This created a tradition of winning basketball.

    Kentucky's program started in 1903 and held a losing record for 6 years before the university decided to abolish the program due to poor performance and overcrowding in the gymnasium. The following year, the student body urged a solution: utilize the armory for the basketball program and hire their FOOTBALL coach as the team's leader. Three years later they went undefeated. Over the next 20 years the program had normal ebbs and flows of a mediocre basketball team. Not until 1930 did the team sustain a program of tradition or consistent winning. Adolph Rupp coached the team to 4 National Championships, 6 Final Four appearances and 27 Conference Titles over his 42 year reign.

    Neither school entered basketball saying "Hey! We are _________ and you should be excited about basketball and the program we have." In each case it was earned through good coaching and stability in the program. (Best example would be "Rupp's Runts" in 1966 when he didn't have a player on the roster over 6'5" and finished runner-up to the National Championship.)

    Your comment "At Texas, people like basketball but they don't care about it" could not be more dead on. Look at Dallas winning the NBA Championship last year. Look at San Antonio's run a few years ago. Texans were ravenous about each program. And I'd argue that they would be just as ravenous about the 'Horns if they had something to cheer about in Austin. Fans would show up to the Drum and support a winning program, no doubt about it. I remember in the 1990's going to a Women's basketball game and fans filled the second level of the Erwin Center and cheered a winning program that had sustainable success.

    Regarding Barnes, I'd hold a very short leash with him. I would address his recruiting tactics and concentrate on talented players who want to be a Longhorn for more than a year. I believe that is the recipe that the winning programs follow and there is no reason we can't adopt that philosophy ourselves. This team should not be the "mandatory" springboard to the NBA.

    Smart and very informative take. I eagerly await post #2

    COACH CUTLIP ●

  • I'm not going to knock anyone for having an informed opinion. I just don't believe that most of the people in the A category are a good representation of true fans. Based on their other comments in their posts they are obviously not very knowledgeable on the subject.

    Idk if Barnes will ever win a NC but I do think it's possible based on teams he was able to put together in the past.

    HoopsCoach

  • My problem has more to do with state of college basketball as a whole, and less to do with Rick Barnes. That said, his recruiting strategy needs tweaking and he needs help on offensive side of the ball.

    "Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free"

    TexShoe

  • "Your comment "At Texas, people like basketball but they don't care about it" could not be more dead on. Look at Dallas winning the NBA Championship last year. Look at San Antonio's run a few years ago. Texans were ravenous about each program. And I'd argue that they would be just as ravenous about the 'Horns if they had something to cheer about in Austin. Fans would show up to the Drum and support a winning program, no doubt about it. I remember in the 1990's going to a Women's basketball game and fans filled the second level of the Erwin Center and cheered a winning program that had sustainable success.

    Regarding Barnes, I'd hold a very short leash with him. I would address his recruiting tactics and concentrate on talented players who want to be a Longhorn for more than a year. I believe that is the recipe that the winning programs follow and there is no reason we can't adopt that philosophy ourselves. This team should not be the "mandatory" springboard to the NBA. "

    albtex, agree on the changing recruiting tactics and it seems that is exactly what Rick has done this past year. Bunch of program guys that cannot change a program as a true frosh like a Durant could. Obvious that Barnes did change the focus yet patience is not there to let it take shape it seems. Don't so much agree with the fans will show up to the Drum if they had something to cheer about would support a winning program. We're no stranger to the top 10 under Rick actually, we've been there, fans haven't been though. Not sure what you mean by winning program for sure. We have won 20 games every season for quite a while. Few can say that really. I think places like Duke, KU and Kentucky actually bring in players AND want to stay due to the crazy packed house. So what comes first, the national title or the fans? If we are truly "fans", we go because it's UT. Pro teams I can understand will draw based on winning but UT should not be that way should it? Regardless, we ARE winning and yet we play to lots of empties.

    dentonhorn

  • NLeininger said...

    Barnes needs to do a better job of identifying the 3-4 years guys that actually get much better throughout there careers.

    This is absolutely the key for me.

    "Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free"

    TexShoe

  • Bob in Houston said...

    Not Gerry but I'll suggest that the standard is, "Don't embarrass us."

    Goes for just about any sport, depending on the emphasis and the budget. It's why a coach can go 4-8 at Kansas in football but 18-14 in basketball would set his chair on fire.

    At Texas, people like basketball but they don't care about it. If they cared, Barnes might feel more heat. But if they cared, there might be a stronger tradition, and players might hang around longer, as Texas football players do, and Duke and North Carolina basketball players do, and Barnes would have a stronger resume of high seeds and NCAA victories than he already does (and believe it or not, it's still pretty good).

    When you get to No. 1, as Barnes did in 2010, and nearly fall out of the NCAA tournament, that's embarrassing. When you jack up expectations in 2011 with a perfect B12 start, then lose three of the last five, and blow a NCAA game that you had in your pocket after working really hard to overcome a big deficit, that's embarrassing.

    At Texas, the football coach can't go 3-9 and lose at home 66-3. Just can't do it. Can't go 5-7 with the same ol' crew and expect to keep on going.

    Barnes has set a high standard and has to show that he can still meet it. I don't think next year is make-or-break because I don't think the roster merits it. The next year? I think people will be watching closely.

    That's a solid take, but I don't accept that as an excuse. Florida, Ohio State, and Wisconsin are every bit as rabid about their football as we do. Yet, they manage to put together a respectable squad year in and year out.

    And no, I don't consider merely making it into the field of 68 or whatever it is these days "respectable", not when you're talking about a school like Texas.

    "Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free"

    TexShoe

  • TexShoe said...

    That's a solid take, but I don't accept that as an excuse. Florida, Ohio State, and Wisconsin are every bit as rabid about their football as we do. Yet, they manage to put together a respectable squad year in and year out.

    And no, I don't consider merely making it into the field of 68 or whatever it is these days "respectable", not when you're talking about a school like Texas.

    Then you must feel Texas has been a respectable squad year in and year out. Donovan won two championships in the back to back years with Horford, Noah, Williams, Greene, et al. He made the finals one other year. After the championships, he missed the tournament for two straight years. He was one other Elite Eight, and two other sweet sixteen and everything else is a first or second rounk knockout. He has two championships and three final fours to Barnes's single final four, but he's been pretty up and down. Still alive this year as one of the sweet sixteens.

    Bo Ryan--four sweet sixteens and one elite eight in 11 seasons--pretty comparable to Barnes. Still alive this year as one of the sweet sixteens.

    Thad Matta--a missed postseason, an NIT championship, a first round out, a second round out, three sweet sixteens, one semi-final. Still alive this year (as one of the three sweet sixteens).

    The only difference between Barnes and Ryan and Matta is that Barnes is in a four year low. It's a bad low. It's not a good trend. It's maybe a bad call from not looking like a four year low but looking more like the normal up and down pattern that all coaches have.

    But I have a question for everyone on this thread:

    Is there something significantly different about Rick Barnes today from Rick Barnes of 7 or 8 years ago? If so, what?

    This post was edited by bierce on 3/22/2012 at 6:14 PM

    bierce ●

  • When u seek to recruit blue chippers, you are always going to end up losing them early. They do not come to school for an education. They come to be seen. The Big 12 is one of the top two conferences in the nation. How 'bout Rick Barnes do some real coaching and put a team together that will stay together and develop. Rick Barnes is alot like Mack Brown. Vince Young made Mack Brown. Devin Durant and TJ Ford have made Barnes. Talent is one thing. True coaching is another. I go with choice A. Time for a change.

    hookemtrey

  • TexShoe said...

    That's a solid take, but I don't accept that as an excuse.

    It wasn't an "excuse" for anything. It was a guess at how management looks at all of its programs and basketball in particular.

    “Kansas may wind up number one in these polls, but that would be so unfair to Texas...” -- Len Elmore, 2/13/11

    Bob in Houston

  • Lots of discussion on this and TOS about a subject that really has zero chance of occurring. Barnes is not going anywhere. A few yrs ago Arkansas changed coaches and went out and grabbed one of the hottest names in "up and coming" young coaches. Ended up having to fire his butt. That's the risk. If anyone thinks they are going out and lure an elite established coach to come to Austin....then they will find him standing next to a Sasquatch. Ain't happening.

    dentonhorn

  • I'm between A and B. He has been here long enough to have the benefit of the doubt. However, I feel he has not progressed as he should.

    I question his going on these recruiting sprees to get the so-called "one and done" recruits. Any one knows you need that type of player; however, you also need the bread and butter guys that are going to be the staple of stability for the 3 years running.

    Also, Barnes needs to quit fighting the fact that he needs an offensive coach that teaches the basic fundamentals of basketball. I truly find myself wondering exactly what type of plays Barnes is running. Barnes is a defensive coach. I agree with his coaching ability there. However, our offensive plan is too simplistic and every coach in the county knows how to defend us. Tell me why he will not get someone with the knowledge to do what everyone knows is the right thing to do and that is to have great coaching on the offensive side of the game.

    If Barnes has another bubble year or a one and done season, I would hope that Dodds would look for another coach.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that for the money this university pays it's coaches that we should all expect MORE! And that includes basketball (men and women) , football and baseball (softball). I was totally appalled to hear Plonsky make her absurd comments regarding GG. This university should not need to wait over a 3 year period to decide if the coach that was hired is or isn't doing a great job. We should be in the mix in all sports! I wish we could send a message to the Dodds and Polonsky's of this World that we expect greatness from all aspects of sports here at Texas and we expect them to make this happen!!!

    texasgal

  • I am not sure why just showing up to the Tourney means success. How many Big 12 Championships do we have? Have we won the Big 12 Tourney during Coach Barnes' tenure? Heck Abe Lemons did better when he first started. He also played some of his games at Gregory Gym and had to contend with the Razorbacks who at the time fielded elite teams. Look, Texas sports has come a long way. The BB team has done some really good things under Coach Barnes. Can't deny that. However, the biggest weakness right now is what is happening to player-continuity in the program. That it is probably--I use that word deliberately because I am not the coach--because we are recruiting players that are in it only for what they are getting and not to represent the school. I think it does't bode well for the program if those are the kids one is concentrating on. I am also not convinced that you cannot recruit good players who are not just looking to stop in on their way to the draft. How many plares sign letters of intent each year and how many players are drafted each year. Simple mathematics.

    horn4life1

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