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The place for off topic discussion on Hookem


Sheldon McClellan to transfer from Texas

  • There is no such thing as refusing to release someone from a scholarship. Scholarships are one year things, and the athlete is under no obligation to return the following season; however, if he goes to another school, then he has to sit a year before being eligible to play. A school cannot waive NCAA transfer rules by itself. So anyone can leave, and Barnes can't stop him, but Barnes can't make him suddenly eligible without sitting out a year, either.

    Edit: Wrong about the release in the aspect of financial aid. Correct about the athlete not needing a release to go somewhere else. Correct about the school not being able to waive the 1 year sitting out.

    This post was edited by bierce 13 months ago

  • +1 for obviously being an old fart. i mean , Mickey Rooney? aren't you supposed to be quoting somebody from Glee?

  • As an Olden Farte, I appreciate your acknowledgement! Now! Get off of my lawn! Kelso!!!!! ;)

    This post was edited by BudreauReye 13 months ago

  • Unless they recently changed the rule I think you are wrong about this. You cannot stop a player from transferring, but you can choose not to release him from scholarship. In this situation the player will have to pay his own way for some period of time.

  • I agree to certain degrees with almost everything you just said, so let me try to clarify some things.

    1st, I think Barnes is a very good coach. I've seen him coach 1st hand and have a lot of respect for his accomplishments. As a coach I would hate to be fired the first time my team has a losing season, especially when everyone is a freshmen or sophomore. Look around college basketball and the list of coaches that have gone to the NCAA tournament in more consecutive years than Barnes was very short coming into the season.

    With that said, somewhere along the way Barnes lost his identity and started changing the offense every season. They used to push the ball and use random ball screens, then it was the Jazz offense, then the flex. The problem with this is what system are we recruiting for? I would say we are recruiting for the one constant....defense. But then we went out and got Papi, Lammert, and Felix. Each is limited defensively by athleticism, strength, or size. Now, I understand all of this falls on Barnes, and needs to be fixed. I understand that those are additional reasons to fire him. But, I still feel like he CAN fix the problem.

    I'm not as confident in UT being able to make the right hire, as others are. If Shaka won't go to UCLA then you can forget about him here. Stevens isn't coming. I would love Buzz Williams, but what if he says no? My biggest fear is that we will have to reach on some hot name, that fails miserably here. And we are upset because we missed the tournament. Didn't Butler miss it last year, Kentucky missed it this year, VCU missed it in Smart's 1st season, and Greg Marshall has only made it 2 or 3 times. No guarantee that someone else is going to do better than what Barnes has done.

    I also shouldn't have said McClellan was lazy. He's not lazy. Just non aggressive, not physical, and doesn't have the mentality to be what we needed. But, you can't use the "sophomore" excuse when complaining about Barnes' handling of McClellan, yet demand excellence from the team when they are all freshmen and sophomores. Barnes tried to get more out of McClellan and couldn't. Bottom line.

    And money isn't a deterrent, but it isn't the answer either. The fact that our "fans" are non existent is a deterrent. You can't get the in state talent to come play at a school that has no fan support. The fact that those same "fans" that don't attend games, are the ones demanding a sweet 16 every year, is a deterrent. That's just not realistic. And I don't think our facilities are that great any longer.

    I shouldn't have said good fit either. I just meant we could end up hiring a worse coach. Look at Arkansas. They had Nolan, got tired of his crap, and have never been the same since. Everyone there thought they could just go out and hire a great young coach and that they would start to get back to where they were. Nope!! Hasn't worked out that way at all.

  • You may be right, but I don't think that is the case. However, we may be talking about different things. A school can control who a student under scholarship is allowed to speak with concerning future athleticademics, but it can't prevent the student from waltzing into a different university on Sept. 1 (or whatever the date the aid agreement ends) and signing up for financial aid. From what I see, the rule only requires that the transfer student be academically eligible to compete. The rest of the rule goes on to discuss limitations regarding financial assistance at a 2 year university. Eligibility for Institutional Athletically Related Financial Aid. A transfer student from a four year
    institution may receive institutional athletically related financial aid during his or her first academic year at
    the certifying institution only if he or she would have been academically eligible to compete during the next regular
    academic term had the student-athlete remained at the previous institution.

    Maybe there is another provision that requires a release, but I thought the flap about Uthoff wasn't about whether he could receive financial aid at any of the schools Wisconsin was trying to exclude should he wind up there in the following season, but whether those schools were permitted to contact him during the period the scholarship was in effect. Ergo, Uthoff wasn't allowed to even talk to Marquette, Iowa State, Virginia, etc.

    Edit: Eh. Wrong. See below about financial aid in the first year being dependent on the school being granted permission to speak to the athlete.

    This post has been edited 2 times, most recently by bierce 13 months ago

  • I think the school can choose to not release players to certain schools. If Barnes thought someone talked McClellan into transferring to UH, he could release him to everyone except UH. Not sure what happens in that case if he still transfers to UH.

  • I've seen a lot of "so and so coach won't release so and so player" over the years, but not I'm sure I've seen a concise explanation of the rule.

    Perhaps there is way to de-facto veto a transfer by not granting the player permission to speak to other schools? (Something like preventing the necessary paperwork from being filed in time)

  • Not disagreeing with you, but why hold it up? Unless the player has been recruited there is no reason to deny his release.

  • Didn't this happen to Texas last year with Clarkson? Tulsa released him to all schools but Texas and a handful of others, but it was clear that the bar was against Texas as that is where he wanted to go. So he went to Missouri to be with Haith.

  • Then there was the kid from St. Joe's who used St. Joe's summer school money to finish school, then asked for a release to go to UAB and play his fifth year. Martelli wouldn't release him, and the kid wouldn't go there without a scholarship, so he didn't play. It could be that the rule letting you play the fifth year as a grad student elsewhere requires a release -- you are playing without sitting out.

    But my general perception of how the NCAA world works is that if you want to transfer without a release, you have to pay your own way during the transfer year. Then after the transfer year, you could take the scholarship at the new school and the old school would have nothing to say about it. Most contributors at high D-I either want or need the scholarship. So without the release, they don't go.

    Pre-post edit: Could have something to do, not with NCAA rules, but rather with the letter of intent. The release is from the LOI, right?

    “Kansas may wind up number one in these polls, but that would be so unfair to Texas...” -- Len Elmore, 2/13/11

  • Kudos to all who called me out on this. Apparently, I just couldn't find the rule, but in this Q&A page, the NCAA says permission to speak to the athlete is a prerequisite for the offering of financial aid.

    Proposals are expected to remove the financial aid restriction.

    This post was edited by bierce 13 months ago

  • I don't think Barnes CAN fix the offensive problem. He has had multiple times to do it and simply hasn't minus a Kevin Durant. He's not going to unless he gets another. That's a lot of chances, when most coaches don't even get an opportunity. This will always haunt his teams at some point because you simply can't rely on stopping everyone.

    I don't understand the fear of making the 'right' hire. We obviously don't have the right guy in place right now. There is nothing happening over the next 15 months to drastically stop a decline. I actually think there's a solid offensive nucleus potentially. But we need someone to fill in the details and get to them right now to develop them with age. Realistically, you're not going to get that right guy everytime, but there are lots of good coaches/recruiters out there. The problem is, UT is not talented in comparison to its own conference and is relying on outdefending everyone. It can't get much worse with the level of coach that would even be looked at. If you can't even get players here you're just plain in trouble.

    My point about McClellan is that he's the same age as the rest of the team and he was ahead of them. Aside from the mental handling of McClellan, you're hurting him and the team. You go to Iowa St( a team that you can beat) and play him 1 minute. You can't point him out as the best player on the team and play him like the worst player on the team. Other guys make huge and multiple mistakes and stay in. McClellan immediately pulled for long stretches. Doesn't improve the player, doesn't improve the team. Same crap with Damien James, who was about the biggest hustler outside of Royal Ivey in the Barnes era. Same crap with Jordan Hamilton. There is something beyond just being a disciplined coach or a tough coach. There is a tearing down of specific guys and no building up.

    Our fans are non existent because the product is bad and if its still like it was when I was at UT, the publication and advertising of games is horrible. A good college coach doesn't let either of those happen. Mack Brown doesn't let that happen. You might say that's not the coaches job, but Mack Brown absolutely changed that culture. Talent will come to a good coach that can win and put them in the league. And the facilities are still top notch.

    And if last season is where we are going to be for the rest of Barnes's tenior, then I'd rather UT take a chance. There are coaches out there that have actually won and are good coaches, yet we're afraid to try because we're afraid of falling below mediocrity? I don't buy it.

  • Kelso

    I got your back, partner.

    "I don't hate you, I'm just not necessarily excited about your existence."

  • Actually, Barnes has had a top 25 offense 5 times, and a top 6 offense twice.

    How is it obvious that we don't have the right guy in place right now? Because we didn't make the NCAA tournament? Because we just had our 1st losing season in 14 yrs? Which btw was only Barnes' 2nd losing season in his entire career. Oh, and losing his starting PG for 23 games, or the entire roster being freshmen and sophomores had nothing to do with it.

    You said there are lots of good coaches out there. So tell me, of the ones that would come to UT, which ones have accomplished what Barnes has, have been as consistent as Barnes, or have recruited as well. Not one coach being mentioned has had anywhere near the recruiting success as Barnes, and all have missed the tournament and had losing records. So yes, it could get MUCH worse. There is a reason why Barnes is the most successful coach in UT's history.

    We will have to disagree on McClellan. Not sure what he was ahead of the rest of the team at. I don't know all the details, but I do know that he wasn't doing what was asked of him. You think he should have still played, Barnes didn't. Did Barnes handle him too harshly? Probably, but again I don't know all the details.

    You said I was making excuses for Barnes, yet here you are making excuses for fans. Our fan support is unacceptable, and we are too stupid to realize it hurts us with recruits and potential coaches when Barnes is fired.

    Last time I checked Barnes has put more players in the league than all of the people mentioned as replacements COMBINED! You probably should have left that out. And our facilities are NOT top notch. The Drum is ridiculous. The practice facility is nice, but nothing special. A lot of other schools have caught up to us in this department.

    And last, previous history says that last season is not where we will be for the rest of Barnes time here. And again, how many of the coaches that we can get, have won at the same level, and with the same consistency?

    Look, if we KNEW we could get Shaka Smart, Brad Stevens, or even Buzz Williams then I would be cool with it. But the reality is that we can't get Smart or Stevens, and might not be able to get Williams. All the others mentioned on this board are guys you would just be rolling the dice with, imo. Sorry, but that's not good enough to me.

    This post was edited by HoopsCoach 13 months ago

  • Okay, we are mostly Texas fans of varying degrees on the board. Some feel everything needs to be burned to the ground because of a few mediocre years. Some remember what has happened when that has been done in the past. Basketball at Texas is in a particularly bad situation because it will always be second banana to football. Except for a couple of the Lemons' years and the Durant season, it is about as exciting as a a Catholic funeral. Recruits can see that and it is amazing that Barnes can get anyone of note in the building. Add on top of that we now play in a league with a team that lives and breathes basketball with every student in the school. Oklahoma State also puts more emphasis on BB than most because they used to not be competitive in football.

    Does that mean we cannot be competitive? No. But constantly changing coaches will not get us there. Barnes is a decent coach and a better than decent recruiter. If we go away from him, it will take an amazing hire to do better and it is almost guaranteed he would leave us for a basketball school or a pro gig. If you believe that gamble is worth it, I hope you are correct and the current administration can make a hire that will make you happy. The odds are highly against it in basketball, at least on the boy's side.

  • +1 for both of these posts, not that it matters.

    Both of you guys are making entirely too much sense ... what is the matter with the both of youz! ;) And boy, did I get your post quotes messed up ... where is that coffee!? ;)

    This post was edited by BudreauReye 13 months ago

  • For everyone that thinks replacing Barnes with a top notch coach, needs to read this. There is a lot of truth in it.

  • Replacing a coach who is now 5 years removed from period of sustained success and who has been in place for 15 years, isn't "constantly changing coaches."

    Cooley Pavilion is still special in that it is one of the top practice and training facilities in the country. It is no longer unique in that regard, but it is still a huge boost over all but the biggest programs in the country who also have top of the line facilities.

    Crowds come for winners. Announced attendance of 14000+ for the game against Texas State in December, 2009, and 11,500+ to see the follow up against an awful Pan Am team during winter break. 16,755 to see 9-8 Colorado in January, 2008. There were probably some no shows, but the point is that when the team is doing well, the fans come, even if they aren't as rabid as fans in other locales.

    Texas could still be a promising place for basketball. The program was there 5-10 years ago when Cooley was the be-all and end-all of practice facilities and Barnes was not viewed as a guy who couldn't manage a late game situation, couldn't win in the tournament, couldn't develop an offense, and couldn't get along with players. I'm not saying those criticisms are warranted to the degree to which they are levied, but one has to admit those criticisms are there.

    There are changes that could be made to make the Frank Erwin Center for Events Special better for basketball without bulldozing it and building from scratch. I never understood why it has aisles nearly as wide as sections of seats in the lower level. An arena designed specifically for basketball or at least to have a primary seating configuration that maximizes fans near the court would be better, of course, but I understand there won't ever be a fully charged environment in Austin because of concessions having to be made to the big money donors. That doesn't mean compromise is impossible. There can be a no standing section while the rest can be permitted to get rowdy. Students should get a section near the floor somewhere other than behind the baskets.

    Texas basketball isn't where it should be. Four years in five of not having even a sniff of second place is not acceptable. It isn't decent. It's average, and there is little excuse for being average over such a sustained period of time. Rick Barnes and Scott Drew have nearly an identical average place of finish in the conference over the last 5 years. Taking ties as the average of the range of teams involved in the tie, our place of finishes totals 27 over that period, while Baylor's totals 29. So one team finishes in 5.4th place and one team finishes in 5.8th place on average. Big difference. The main difference is Barnes has a rather flat level of deep middle of the pack conference finishes and early tournament flameouts with a single second place finish (yet still an early tournament loss) and single year of not getting into the Dance while Drew has a couple of relatively high (3rd or tied for 3rd) finishes and two Elite Eights to go with 3 non-appearances (two of which had deep NIT runs, for whatever that is worth).

    Many of us think Drew cheats to get so many top recruits. Many of us think he's an idiot to get so little out of his players. Yet looking at team recruiting rankings over the last 6 years (using Rivals, since 247 hasn't been doing them for that long), one sees

    2007 Texas 21, Baylor nr
    2008 nr, nr
    2009 Texas 2, Baylor 19
    2010 Texas 8, Baylor 25
    2011 Texas 8, Baylor 14
    2012 Texas 11, Baylor 6

    So over the last 7 years, Texas out recruited Baylor every year until the last class came in, and we call Drew an idiot of a coach because he can't get better results when he has an average finish nearly equal to that of Barnes. Hmm. I'm not saying Barnes is an idiot, but the idea that Barnes is some kind of a superior coach when his results have been so mediocre for so long while we are supposed to think a guy 100 miles away who has similar average results with somewhat lesser talent is some kind of a clod is a bit hard for me to accept without pause. There is that thing of keeping the best players an additional year, but is that something to hold against the coach that does? Should we only give credit for recruiting skills and not for retaining skills?

    Now we face having the weakest entering class in 5 years; this during a season in which in-state talent was at an all-time high and the second best year wasn't even close. The only in-state commitment is an under the radar guy who came to Texas late in his high school career and was being courted by the likes of SMU, Nebraska, Penn State, and didn't have a single offer from school that made the tournament this year.

    Eeesh. If we get Yancy-Harris, that will be nice, but we are still looking at the weakest class since 2008.

    Now we face the possibility of having the 2011 class, a very good class, albeit one with 3-4 year players rather than one and dones and two and throughs, reduced to just Jonathan Holmes. (I tend to think Lewis will still stay, but I don't really know, and 'm not going to bet on it.) So much for the plan to recruit guys who want to stay and develop.

    Now we face the possibility of the chief recruiter going elsewhere.

    Things are not looking good. Sorry to level an indictment, but the events of the past 5 years have spelled it out for the grand jury.

    This coming season should have been the season in which Texas could roll. It was to have a solid foundation of juniors from 2011 complemented by talented sophomores and a couple of much ballyhooed freshmen from the best hs class ever produced in the state. Instead, it is another season of uncertainty for a team that goes into the year without proven scorers, without any resembling an effective offense, without anyone who combines size and athleticism at the 3 and 4. It might have only a single player with 2 years experience. That's a problem. It probably won't have a point guard over 6' who can dribble, pass, shoot, and defend. That's a problem. It won't have proven deep shooting threats. That's a problem. It won't have a guy in the post who can be counted on reliably on offense. That's a problem. What should have been a season with a top 10 preseason ranking is now nothing more than a ?

    Yes, we are at a low point. The problem is that it's the lowest point of what has been a long trough. I think the team will be better next year and maybe quite a bit better, but I don't see at present how Barnes will ever get the UT basketball program anywhere near the level of excellence he had it 5-10 years ago. I just don't.

    Barnes will get at least one more season as the coach, and maybe he can resurrect a winner and maybe use that to land some highly regarded 2014 players and things will be on the up again; however, most 2014 players will commit in November and their impression of Texas will be a losing team with tepid fans and players who didn't get along with the coach.

    My apologies to all if I offend by saying that annual 10-8 records in conference and first weekend bowouts is not acceptable, and that is exactly what we have received for 5 years running. Barnes has to win now or he should be replaced. He's made millions here, so I won't cry for him or his family. Indeed, I will send him off with thanks for building the program and giving great memories as well as bitter disappointments.

    I feel quite confident Texas would get the same or better from a dozen other coaches, and not just from Smart, Stevens, or Williams. We've mentioned many other names on the long running thread about coaches. Barnes himself had only three seasons with winning records in conference play before coming to Texas and no season better than +2 in a power conference, so it isn't like a guy who can have only decent teams elsewhere can't use Texas to lure better talent and build a winning program. I wouldn't be surprised to see Scott Cross or Michael White succeed here. I definitely wouldn't be surprised to see Andy Enfield or Greg Marshall kick ass. Texas might not get its first choice, but it will get a very good coach as a replacement when it goes hunting.

  • We the jury find the defendent ; guilty as charged.