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The place for off topic discussion on Hookem

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Just a Thought....

  • I respect all the posters on this board. There is a lot of good discussion daily. With that said, it's my opinion a lot of fans and media are letting their disappointment with the last few seasons cloud their judgment when it comes to Mack's national reputation in the coaching community and why good assistant coaches would want to work under him at Texas.

    For instance, all I hear is "Why would coach X come to Texas for 1 year when Mack is known to be retiring/leaving?"

    Ever thought that coach X would have head coach aspirations and figures working under Mack for a year or two would look good on the ole resume? I mean when you look at the list of guys that have been coordinators/assistants under Mack that have gone on to be head coaches the list is pretty decent (Brewster, Tomey, Robinson, Chizik, Muschamp, Harsin, possibly Major?) This should tell you that even though Texas fans are ready to burn Mack at the stake, athletic directors across the country are impressed enough to hire assistants that come from Texas. And if you were the Athletic director at Arkansas State looking for the "next big coaching thing" why wouldn't you be impressed with a guy who coached under a national championship winner, one of the winningest coaches of the last 15 years, and who as done all that with integrity and class in the era of scandal?

    I honestly believe top assistants like Chizik, Muschamp, and Harsin come to a place like Texas for 1) good money 2) getting experience on how to run a program the right way from Mack Brown. Plus if you have success as a coordinator at Texas, you're going to be in a high profile media market/state institution to get plenty of exposure to then put yourself in a position to be hired as a head coach.

    Lastly, I really think Mack likes promoting these guys to head coaching positions and supports their choice to move on. When he brought in Harsin, he knew he would have him for 2-3 years max with Major being trained by that time and ready to make an easy transition. Why else have Major as co-offensive coordinator? For all of you excited that Major will be taking over play calling duties, are you going to give Mack any credit for setting up the succession plan and bringing Major back from Alabama? I mean, we could be going "ah shucks" right now and in a frantic national search for a new offensive coordinator. (with BCS aspirations next year to boot)

    I still think Mack has issues like not getting enough out of his 4&5 star talent and not being proactive enough in a lot of areas, however I still believe we are a spoiled fan base that doesn't realize that top assistants across the country are eager to come to a place like Texas and work under Mack to get prepared to take over as a head coach at another program. The head coaching pipeline speaks for itself. It's the nature of the beast.

  • I wouldn't have highlighted Mack's coaching pipeline. It's really nothing very special, or can't be attributed to Mack in the first place. Let's review your list shall we?

    Brewster- abject failure as Minnesota head coach.

    Tomey- was kicking a** at Arizona with the Desert Storm defense and Pac-10 coach of the year bit about the same time Mack landed his first head coaching gig at Tulane.

    Robinson- abject failure as SU head coach.

    Chizik- won a natty after buying his VY for Auburn. Is now golfing in Florida. I suppose that's a true MB success story.

    Muschamp- Should be kicking a** here, but he's kicking a** in Florida because MB couldn't let go. Saban has far more claim to Will than Brown.

    Harsin- Good coordinator. Might be a great head coach, but he's from Chris Peterson's tree.

    Major- Try again.

    This post was edited by Bobby_Batronic 16 months ago

    I got brains. I got big ol' brains. I got dinosaur brains.

  • JeezGuy

    I think he has a national reputation as a good guy and recruiter. I think thats where it ends. Coaches come to Texas because its Texas and is seen as a place that if you have success will lead to a better gig. Mack will help a coach do that apparently. However, I cant think of a single coach in his so called tree or pipeline that I would consider exemplary or kicking ass. Most aren't here long enough to learn much anyway and others came here with a reputation or after learning under other big time coaches. JMO.

  • You rationalizing how every coordinator who has coached under MB is (1) not part of MB's coaching tree because they also coached under another coach or (2) was not a spectacular head coach when given the opportunity does not change the fact that MB has had many assistants move directly into head coaching positions following their time under MB.

    The OP is 100% correct that MB has a lot to offer an up-and-coming coach. While MB's Xs and Os ability will always be in question, for good reason, there is no doubting he is a world class program builder. While many will say that he has also led Texas to its current less-than-optimal position, that does not take away from the tremendous skill he showed building us into where we were from 2000-2010, and UNC prior to that. While he can't claim tons of top end success (a multitude of conference championships, more than 1 MNC), you wishing him gone now does not change the fact that MB has skills that almost every coach in the nation could use to make their program better.

    Case in point - Will Muschamp. Although you are correct that WM is much more "Saban-esque," WM has gone on the record since moving to Florida that he learned a lot under MB. Maybe this was only, as CTJ would put it, because MB is such a bad head coach that WM is just doing what MB wouldn't do; however, I would bet that WM is actually just telling the truth about having worked under one of the best in the business. Did WM adopt every policy of MB's? Definitely not, but I'm sure he took a lot of what he learned and tweaked it to fit his own style.

    The revisionist history around here that attempts to paint MB as some sort of clown is getting ridiculous....

  • unfortunately, people will look at mack's record - definitely a good guy but being good does not win championships and Texas is slipping

  • All coaches eventually fail. Add Shanahan to that list. A lot of coaches send their sons to Texas. They are clueless though. The idiots behind the keyboard have it figured out.

  • With respect to the original poster, let me at least try to explain just my view. A long, long time ago (star war music) another coach with an excellent record watched his team get beat. He decided as the story was told to change his whole team built for speed to one built for power. Soon he was losing regularly to his arch rival and the supporters of his team said " Be Gone!!"

    Mack has in my opinion tried to reshape a winning formula (speed, passing, and defense that could deal with the spread offenses of the big 12) to an Alabama style offense. He simply did not have the personnel in the pipeline to do so. Offensive linemen who were taught how to run block in the years leading up to The Change, a fullback who could actually block like Hall, a tight end. Under the pressure of an under-performing offense our defense begin to lose ground. Boom, one of the best, got a great chance to improve his position and took it. In other words the 3 years was caused by the decision of our head coach.

    I admire Mack for what he did over his tenure. I respect him for having the fortitude to change even if I question the wisdom therein. However, it appears to a lot of people that Mack does really care and realizes he is not getting it done. I truly do not think Mack believes in himself and that questioning is being conveyed to his players. Leadership is something that some have. Mack had it but perhaps he has lost it. If he can get that trait back next year he just might make the naysayers in here (and I honestly fall into that category) have crow to eat. I will gladly eat that crow!

    The coach that I made reference to was Bud Wilkerson. His OU teams won 47 straight games with Notre Dame finally defeated them. Wilkerson said his team was beaten because the Irish was stronger and just physically beat them down and he was going to change to a more powerful football team.

    He kept his system in place for another year as he recruited for the future as freshmen did not play back in 58. His only loss that year was to Texas 15-14 (perhaps the greatest game I ever saw in person). After that with the power football he was 31-19. (Remember that OU played in the big 2 and little 6 back then).

    Certainly we here know that the great Darrell Royal was the coach that won that game and started beating his old coach on a regular basis. Wilkerson retired at 47! And many said that he looked 80. Stress is hard on people who have for years been successful and then they hit a rough patch. I believe it is taking a toll on Mack. God bless him andhookem

    This post has been edited 3 times, most recently by JFrankWebb 16 months ago

    275-0 scoring margin 10-0 victories Dana X Bible's National Championship team

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  • I don't have to paint MB as a clown. He does a fine job of that himself. Usually in the second week of October.

    There's no rationalizing involved. I'd love to see you lay out a convincing argument that Brian Harsin or Will Muschamp belong to Brown's coaching tree rather than Peterson's or Saban's. Or how Tomey or Robinson learned the ropes under Brown. All you really have is Brewster and Chizik, and the claim to Gene is tenuous.

    Mack Brown may have skills that "almost every coach in the nation could use to make their program better." Unfortunately, Will Muschamp is the only coach cited who any could claim might have actually learned these skills.

    As for UT assistants moving on to head coaching positions....Hi, this is Texas. If you do well here you're going to get a shot somewhere else. And that's true whether the Longhorn head coach is Mack Brown or Rumpelstiltskin.

    Have at it.

    I got brains. I got big ol' brains. I got dinosaur brains.

  • Blonde if you you watched Will's introductory press conference at Florida ( I am sure you can probably find it on the web) you will see Will expressing his appreciation for of all his former bosses and mentors including Mack Brown. He went on to say he learned a lot of good things about how to run a program and then smiled and said he also learned some not so good things from them. He then stated without being coaxed that he viewed himself as a football coach not a CEO...a telling and pointed critique of MB in my opinion. I agre with you that it wasn't all bad but it wasn't all good between them at the end.

  • Never once said all was well btwn MB and WM. I just said he admitted to learning from him. Whether he chose to adopt MB's style (which above I said he didn't), he did admit to learning under MB.

    I also did not try to say every coach who was under MB should be considered part of his "coaching tree." Don't really give enough of a shit to argue about it, so just believe as you guys want, and twist every point someone who doesn't hate MB makes.

    All I said was MB had a lot to teach a coach. This statement is 100% accurate, and if you choose to ignore this fact because you're so angry st MB, then I guess I could say you are a lost cause and not worth arguing with, works well for CTJ

  • clap very well put JFW.

    It is kind of sickening to think how one game or play is possibly responsible for the apparent downward (or at least stagnant) direction of this program. Frankly it's a shame.

  • JeezGuy

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  • That's good stuff right there! Very, very true.

  • I do believe up and coming coaches look at Texas as a launching ground. Mack's reputation as a CEO is part of the reason. If you are a coordinator at Texas people credit you with success. Kirby Smart still faces questions if it is him or Saban behind the curtain. Texas is the perfect spot. You are part of one of the biggest programs in the country. Your success will be be highly publicized. All of that and nobody will question if the teams performance is due to your hard work or the head coach. I am not sure that is a great reflection on Mack though.

  • Don't waste your breath on these Negative Nancie's. You will never change their minds.
    I sure you expected alot of negativity towards your comments. For that I commend and respect you for that. By the way, I didn't agree with everything you said, but for the most part I believe you are spot on!

  • I'm sorry, but every time I see such phrases as "Negative Nancy's" I picture Stuart Smalley sitting satisfied behind his keyboard believing that he just delivered a real zinger.

    Who talks like this? Or even thinks it with their inner monologue?

    This post was edited by Bobby_Batronic 16 months ago

    I got brains. I got big ol' brains. I got dinosaur brains.

  • JeezGuy

    girls mostly...

    nothing wrong with pointing out a different perspective on the matter. I believe coaches who come here learn something but the idea Mack has some long established coaching tree is a bit silly to me considering most of his coaches came to him with considerable experience already or stayed so briefly its hard to consider him one of Macks guys.


  • There are some really old and some really sheltered dudes on the boards. He doesn't even understand what you're conveying, as evidenced by the follow-on post. In any event, I enjoyed the Stuart Smalley reference. I've always had this image that a lot of these guys use the term "Mister!" in their day to day lives when they talk to the guys who mow their lawns, or serve them lunch at Luby's, or who still deliver them the newspaper, or pick up their trash, or whatever. I am sure the kids who run across their lawn for the reactions every day love these guys.

  • Can Jerry Gray count towards Mack's coaching tree since he was here for just under a month?

  • This whole conversation is ridiculous by the way. Mack Brown does not have a coaching tree. To argue that he does is absurd. You can credit Mack for things and get a pass from me, but suggesting that he is churning out talented coaches that are plucked by other programs is laughable. If anyone is trying to use revisionist history, it is those assigning people like Greg Robinson, Gene Chizik and Mushamp to Mack Brown's supposed coaching tree.

    Coaching trees happen when you have a strong X and O coach and the assistants under him learn that system. Bill Walsh had a coaching tree. Hal Mumme has a coaching tree. His protege, Mike Leach has a coaching tree. Chris Petersen has a tree. Bob Stoops has a tree. Mack Brown is tree-less.

    Mack imports the fruits of other people's trees. At best he has a rotting sapling.

    This post was edited by tschuette 16 months ago

  • JeezGuy

    BS---all coaches go back to Knute Rockne and are ultimately part of his tree.

    biggrin