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out past curfew?
"The sad thing is that Mack doesn't have control of his team.
There is ZERO reason for your back up QB to be out in bars at 2 in the morning. The team should be in a hotel, there should be bed checks, and there should be trainers or asst. coaches in the lobby until late.
When I played college football, that is how my coach controlled the situation, and it worked.
This situation is at least partially Mack's fault."- Bobbers1
"What's Mack's fault is completely losing control of the team to the point they have no respect for him.
So much so that two supposed upper class team leaders don't even respect his curfew."-Dexter Stanley.
This was in response to a poster who used the occasion to trash yet again McCoy.
I believe it is a fair question. Has Mack lost the respect of his team? Regrettably there was a spike in similar incidents the last years of Fred Akers years at UT and many very close to the program said Fred had lost the respect of the team.
I believe most here know I want what is best for UT. Personally I will root for UT to win by 40 tonight. I remember some similar happenings with Lou Holtz at Arkansas and his team went out and won that game big. His players respected him. I am asking a question that I do not know the answer to. I respect the opinions of all in here WHO DO NOT TRASH PLAYERS. Regardless of tonight's outcome, young people's futures have been changed forever by whatever happened the other morning. The University will go on. Our proud tradition as a football power will be affirmed if not tonight it will in the not too distant future.
275-0 scoring margin
Dana X Bible's National Championship team
This has already been addressed in other threads. Hard to baby sit 100 so called, grown men. I find it hard to blame Mack for this but as head coach he'll take some hits for this just like everything else Texas football related. If these guys are leaders what the hell are they doing out at 2:30 in the morning getting into trounle. What? Are the coaches supposed to be up with flashlights from dusk to dawn?
This post was edited by sundancekid 19 months ago
Mack has a lot of faults, but to think babysitting that many "men" at all hours of the night is one of them, that's just ignorant and asinine.
Not saying anyone has said that, but if anyone even thinks that, then well, they're not working with a full deck. These things happen at every single university. These kids know right from wrong, just like anyone over the age of 18. Mack shouldn't have to hold their hands and do room checks at all hours of the night.
"I don't hate you, I'm just not necessarily excited about your existence."
To me this is where the discussion should be for fans.
Where do you draw the line? As a parent all you can do is teach, train, discipline, teach, train, discipline...rinse and repeat over and over again.
Then you let them loose and pray to God all of that effort pays off and they make correct decisions which minimize unwanted consequences.
But speaking from experience, it never really turns out perfect. No amount of training and talking can ever guarantee that proper decision making will occur when you mix alcohol in an unsupervised environment by trusted kids.
If it were me, I would assign a GA wing man to every player group that goes out on the town with a ready charged text machine as insurance against such activity.
Players must understand their role in representing a much larger organization than their immediate notoriety and it is up to team officials to lay the ground work for how free time will be managed.
I can only speculate as to how it works at Texas but I would hope that a thorough evaluation takes place after this event to limit the risk of it ever happening again.
I have another question. I don't have VIP, so perhaps this has been addressed by the mods here. But is everyone absolutely sure there was a curfew that was broken?
I ask because I think like most I assumed there was. But then I read this morning that Muschamp does not have a curfew for his team in New Orleans. Just made me wonder if maybe there was not a curfew that night and the rules that were broken were something along the lines of "poor conduct" or whatever.
This post was edited by Sin Miedo 19 months ago
I have read your comments on the other threads. I respect your point of view. In education one finds that there is often duty time. One has to stand outside in cold weather and hot to make sure children do not fight, etc. I remember having bus duty for an hour and half each day as the children waited for the bus after school. The district was wrong in making the children wait that long. My point in this (I taught half my life and made money the other half- so I am an half assed educator) there is I believe a reasonable expectation that the educator in charge of the school activities will somehow see that no harm comes to the students in his charge. That is the "educational" perspective. The other part of me says that by the time a student reaches college the student is adult enough to make their own decisions. If I truly felt I knew the answer to this question, I would not have ask it in a different thread. I suspect that the best answer will be given tonight by our players.
This post was edited by JFrankWebb 19 months ago
No, but over here we all like to assume and point fingers. We're happy with the way we are, so don't mess up our Chi, brah.
Seriously, the thread was so long up top that I didn't even read 1/4 of the drivel that was posted because it usually doesn't end well. Who knows if a curfew was broken, but regardless, those two didn't have any reason be going to anyone's room that late.
McCoy should just be the scapegoat so we can all be happy again.
You make a valid point that I can not answer. I believe you have asked the better question.
So, do we sign a juco Qb to take Case's spot now? Half way joking.
I think Mack said they were suspended for violation of team rules but not sure if he ever used the word curfew or alluded to one. Not sure what other rule would have been violated, other than getting picked up by the cops.
After thinking about it, there's two sides to this. One is these two are supposed to be upper classmen leaders and if they're breaking curfew or doing stuff like this it could be a symptom along with many others (the freshman mocking Mack's little awards, players digging it in games at times, etc) of Mack losing the team. On the other side, these two were a LB that is done for the year and isn't going to play anyway and a backup QB that probably won't play that were partying 2 nights before the game. I can kind of understand why they were out having a good time, especially Hicks who knows he won't play.
I think you just have to look at the overall picture of how things have appeared this season and draw your conclusion on if Mack is losing the team. From my point of view and looking at how soft the team plays at times and the small incidents that have occurred coupled with this incident... I think he has lost them.
I always read your posts because to me you are a voice of reason that sometimes is missing here. To answer your question from my point of view. Yes Mack has lost this team. They have no leaders to take control of situation and I believe if you look back you will see that he had players take leadership of his best teams. I don't know Mack, I have never been in the same room with him, but it appears to me that he wants to be liked. And when you want to be everyones friends you lose control, because he does not have the leadship to take control.
To me it started with offering players years before they could sign and he relished the roll of being the players friends by listening to Vince's music. It's not about the music, it's about once again trying to be liked. A coach should be respected and not necessarily liked. I believe Mack needs someone else to be the leader, because he is not that type of person/coach.
Good points and would add that Texas is the only program who has a staff member who's job is to make sure players are where they are supposed to be etc (Rucker) He failed as a RB coach so Mack gave him another job..............Rucker is like Madden and Davis who simply are on the payroll and don't do their job.
"Leadership is wisdom, courage and great carelessness of self"
Maybe the better question is "Have these two young men lost all respect for themselves and their families, or did they ever have any to begin with?"
Holding anyone responsible for the behavior of someone else is a reach.
I think too many people have reached the point where they are willing to blame Mack Brown for everything from dropped passes to the fiscal cliff.
No one expected this team to win ten games this year... Well at least no people living in reality. Part of the reason was a lack of senior leadership and how young the majority of our talent is this year. Despite our atrocious defense and losing two star players(hicks and Jeffcoat) we have landed right about where people predicted. Has Mack lost the team? I'm not sure. It does seem he's lost a lot of his fan base who are asking "what have you done for me lately?". I think the best response I've seen is that we'll find out tonight.
I do wonder if this impacts Mack's own decision about his coaching future. He can't be enjoying this.
He doesn't work that way. He perceives himself a 'fixer'. After this he'll be in 'double down' mode.
Obviously, thre are problems with the team internally - the coach is the leader, fair or not - too many distractions, etc - just a complete embarassment!
Hopefully, the team will rally and win this game
No, he hasn't lost this team, at least not over this. What you have is two highly trusted players betraying that trust. I don't know if Case and Jordan play again for us, but you can bet they won't be put on the pedestal they were before.
If you think this is bad, take a look at what happened the summer of 07. I think we had 8 guys arrested for various felony charges. That was way worse than what MAY have happened two days ago. I should also stress that we should all wait for the outcome of the legal investigation before crucifying these guys.
I see that Chupita has visited me with a down vote. It would be nice if he could explain why it is wrong to question a man making 5 million a year and ok to trash a college student who has proven to be less of a player than his older brother. The merciless hate for Case I do not understand.
Just to confirm, I do not blame Mack for the fiscal cliff.....
getting you some up votes to overcome those downers...just plussed one your OP to get you back to -1...don't understand the down votes on that post at all. seems like a good topic to me with no flame in the OP.
Thanks. I understand down votes for flaming. I give them for trashing players. I accept them when I pick a fight needlessly. To be clear to you I am not anti Mack. I want the players to rally to his cause and beat the hell out of Oregon State. I simply believe it is fair to question what is going on. I have been a questioner all my life. Some call me a "devil's advocate". Truth is worth defending, but it will usually defend itself. I love the Millton saying
"Let Truth and falsehood grapple on the field unafraid. Whoever knew truth to be put to defeat in free and open combat."
To the question of whether Mack has lost the respect of the team I can easily see that with some players. Think about the coddling, country club atmosphere he's created amongst his coaches and players.
When you try to play the lovable grandpa, everybody gets a cookie role then of course players are going to take advantage b/c you're weak. Then when you try to act mad you end up looking ridiculous.
The teams that have been successful with Mack have had strong player leadership and Muschamp. He has neither now so he's unsuccessful.
9 and 4 at Texas sucks!
- Jeff Howe
The Mack supporters will always be there for Mack, regardless of the outcome - persoanlly, I thibk Mack has done alot for The University - on the other side, The University has done alot for Mack - at this point, the team needs new leadership
Well stated as have been some of the responses that favor Mack such as Longhorn and Sundance. This has been a good discussion- which is what a discussion board should be.
This lies squarely on the individuals that caused this mess, McCoy and Hicks. While you can blame Mack for many things, this is not one of them.
Don't be afraid to ride the lightning.
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